A woman by the name of Carol Allen worked at the Toronto Rape Crisis Centre, uhm, I mean worked meaning she was a volunteer 'cause there was no paid poisitions. (Right.) And they were all a collective and so forth. And she, y'know, had been in the bar circuit for quite a while. And had, she was young. We were all really young, we were, y'know, I was 19.(Oh wow.) Uhm, and she decided to form a group for Lesbians of Colour, so we would have a place of safety, uhm, and to be able to connect with one another and to be able to talk about politics and that kind of thing. (Mhmm.) And so, uhm, she started that group, and, uhm, I invited people from the Fireweed Women of Colour uh, Collective attend. At some point they did. Uhm, and, uh, that was a very interesting group, because we all needed a safe place. (Mhmm.) [laughs] Uhm, because, y'know, going into the bars it was very white, uhm, there was all the microaggressions and the racial attacks, and the, y'know "Where do you come from?" and, y'know "Why are you here?" and "You're not queer! You don't look queer!" [laughs] (Right.) Uhm, and so forth. And, uhm, so, uhm, so that was great. But at some point the group fell apart because there was the typical kind of conversations that were happening. And it was happening in England, it was happening in other places, uhm, like the "We can't lump all women of colour together." That we have different issues. And primarily it was Black women saying this, uhm, so them recognizing - although they didn't have the term for it then but - anti-Black, the specificities of anti-Black racism, right? (Mhmm.) Uhm, and I think that's why in England - 'cause I visited England and I went to women's, feminist organizations there, and met with, y'know, people there uhm, and they, it was the same kind of struggles. Uhm, around identity and, uh, what are we fighting for? And we can't be subsumed under one category because our experiences are very different. (Right.)

So, yeah. So, uhm, I think at that point, uhm, they formed ZANI, and at some similar point we formed ALOT, so Asian Lesbians of Toronto. So, uhm, and then I kept asking "Well what do you mean by Asian lesbians?! [laughing] (Right.) Like do, I, are Middle Eastern people part of Asian lesbians?" (Yeah.) So there weren't, there weren't places for a lot of people, right? Uhm, uh, I remember there was a Middle Eastern woman and she was like "Well, where do I, where do I fit in?" Y'know? And they were largely, I think, social support networks, uhm, where we talked about the issues of the day. And we all, we all went on to do different things, and we could, and different activist work, and we could count on each other for that. So.

On a personal level, I think for me it has always been, like when I reflect back, I think about, y'know, where I had areas of challenges and I think I needed groups too much, right? Like, I, I needed them because there was no other place for me. So I think I stayed in groups that were not healthy...far too long. (Mhmm.) And I should've left earlier. (Mhmm.) Uhm, and also sometimes I was intimidated, and I think I should've spoken up more.